Tidelift

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Tidelift

Stephan Hoyer-2
Tidelift is a startup trying to make open source software more sustainable by selling an open source subscription that pays maintainers.

NumPy is eligible for a guaranteed $10,000 over 24 months -- are we interesting in signing up?

It looks like they've started out focused on web development. NumPy is the only project I see listed in the scientific computing space.

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Andy Ray Terrel
FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that "Numpy developers are eligible".

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:27 PM Stephan Hoyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tidelift is a startup trying to make open source software more sustainable by selling an open source subscription that pays maintainers.

NumPy is eligible for a guaranteed $10,000 over 24 months -- are we interesting in signing up?

It looks like they've started out focused on web development. NumPy is the only project I see listed in the scientific computing space.
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Stephan Hoyer-2
In reply to this post by Stephan Hoyer-2
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:26 PM Stephan Hoyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tidelift is a startup trying to make open source software more sustainable by selling an open source subscription that pays maintainers.

NumPy is eligible for a guaranteed $10,000 over 24 months -- are we interesting in signing up?

It looks like they've started out focused on web development. NumPy is the only project I see listed in the scientific computing space.

It occurs to me that NumFOCUS is probably worth looping into any such discussion, given the strong overlap between Tidelift and NumFOCUS's goals and the nature of our NumFOCUS affiliation.

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Andy Ray Terrel


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 4:55 PM Stephan Hoyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:26 PM Stephan Hoyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tidelift is a startup trying to make open source software more sustainable by selling an open source subscription that pays maintainers.

NumPy is eligible for a guaranteed $10,000 over 24 months -- are we interesting in signing up?

It looks like they've started out focused on web development. NumPy is the only project I see listed in the scientific computing space.

It occurs to me that NumFOCUS is probably worth looping into any such discussion, given the strong overlap between Tidelift and NumFOCUS's goals and the nature of our NumFOCUS affiliation.

Yeah I'm reaching out to Don as we speak. I've known him for a number of years and chatted about NumFOCUS working with Tidelift last year but this program didn't exist.  I think the real game changer is having an automated way to scan a clients code base and spit out the dependencies. I would love to have that to take to every institute we work with. "Here NASA if you don't support these codes the next rover could die" =D
 
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Marten van Kerkwijk

Yeah I'm reaching out to Don as we speak. I've known him for a number of years and chatted about NumFOCUS working with Tidelift last year but this program didn't exist.  I think the real game changer is having an automated way to scan a clients code base and spit out the dependencies. I would love to have that to take to every institute we work with. "Here NASA if you don't support these codes the next rover could die" =D

I agree with the sentiment but you may need a better example...  At least, numarray (which, with numeric, became numpy) was developed at NASA's Space Telescope Science Institute; and the same institute has been paying several developers of astropy (partially as they see it as the best way to get good data analysis pipelines for the upcoming James Webb Space Telescope), one of which was Michael Droetboom (who you may know from matplotlib). Overall, in astronomy at least, NASA has been a wonderful force for open data and software.

-- Marten.


_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Stefan van der Walt
In reply to this post by Andy Ray Terrel
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
> "Numpy developers are eligible".

On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
whole).

This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
increase the amount of time donated to the project?

There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
issues that prevent them from working for compensation.

One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Best regards,
Stéfan


[0] Quoting Fernando Pérez: "When people are expected to work on open
    source software for free, only the people who can afford to work for
    free can participate".
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Andy Ray Terrel
I've forwarded Donald this conversation. He said he is working on some of the finer details. He's up for chatting more in NYC next week so if we want to collect a set of questions it might be easy to get them all figured out there. 

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:06 PM Stefan van der Walt <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
> "Numpy developers are eligible".

On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
whole).

This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
increase the amount of time donated to the project?

There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
issues that prevent them from working for compensation.

One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Best regards,
Stéfan


[0] Quoting Fernando Pérez: "When people are expected to work on open
    source software for free, only the people who can afford to work for
    free can participate".
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Nathaniel Smith
In reply to this post by Stefan van der Walt
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
>> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
>> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
>> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
>> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
>> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
>> "Numpy developers are eligible".
>
> On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> whole).
>
> This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> increase the amount of time donated to the project?
>
> There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
>
> One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.

-n

--
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

Andy Ray Terrel


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
>> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
>> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
>> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
>> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
>> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
>> "Numpy developers are eligible".
>
> On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> whole).
>
> This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> increase the amount of time donated to the project?
>
> There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
>
> One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.

-n

--
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org



The contract [0] mentions: 
 
 "Tidelift wants to pay you to provide certain software maintenance, support, analysis, or other services to Tidelift and Tidelift’s Subscribers (the “Service,” as further defined below), and you want to provide such services."

Depending on the context of these services, money to a 501c3 might not be the best approach. There is some nuance to whether a company is paying for a public good or a non-profit is providing a private service. At a minimum if it is really "only doing the work maintainers do anyways" then we need to write a better contract that says that. On the other hand if it is $5K for a small set of independent consultants, it might be nice money for folks but is a far cry from "paying the maintainers" model that they are marketing, more like "paying consultants" which is a lucrative business for many already. I would love to see it grow to paying a living wage to all maintainers so I think it is in our interest to try and help Tidelift overcome some of these challenges.

-- Andy


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
>> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
>> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
>> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
>> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
>> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
>> "Numpy developers are eligible".
>
> On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> whole).
>
> This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> increase the amount of time donated to the project?
>
> There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
>
> One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.

-n

--
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tidelift

ralfgommers


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:30 PM Andy Ray Terrel <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
>> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
>> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
>> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
>> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
>> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
>> "Numpy developers are eligible".
>
> On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> whole).
>
> This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> increase the amount of time donated to the project?
>
> There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> issues that prevent them from working for compensation.

I agree, most people with regular employment contracts  will either not be able to do this, or spend significant effort (e.g. submitting and getting their employer to sign a conflict of interest statement). See https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/agreement - that's a lot of legalese to deal with. Also, you'll become responsible for taxes etc.

 
>
> One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
doing the things we're already doing,

it's not, there's definitely paperwork involved which is not free. plus you're giving some kind of guarantee, so in case of license issues etc the person(s) who sign up are committed to work on them - no hard timeline given, but clearly an expectation.

then I guess the obvious
approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.

-n

--
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org



The contract [0] mentions: 
 
 "Tidelift wants to pay you to provide certain software maintenance, support, analysis, or other services to Tidelift and Tidelift’s Subscribers (the “Service,” as further defined below), and you want to provide such services."

Depending on the context of these services, money to a 501c3 might not be the best approach. There is some nuance to whether a company is paying for a public good or a non-profit is providing a private service. At a minimum if it is really "only doing the work maintainers do anyways" then we need to write a better contract that says that. On the other hand if it is $5K for a small set of independent consultants, it might be nice money for folks but is a far cry from "paying the maintainers" model that they are marketing, more like "paying consultants" which is a lucrative business for many already. I would love to see it grow to paying a living wage to all maintainers so I think it is in our interest to try and help Tidelift overcome some of these challenges.

I agree.

Ralf


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
>> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks want
>> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
>> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
>> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or for
>> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
>> "Numpy developers are eligible".
>
> On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> whole).
>
> This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> increase the amount of time donated to the project?
>
> There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
>
> One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]

Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.

-n

--
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________
NumPy-Discussion mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion