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Windows wheels using MKL?

Matthew Brett
Hi,

Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?

* We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
easy to come by
* We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
a problem?

Are there other problems for numpy?

* I believe we would also need the Intel Fortran compiler when
building 64-bit scipy with MSVC.  Is that correct?  If we have a
license, is that a problem?

If we did static linking to MKL for numpy and scipy, is there anything
stopping us building wheels that would work for XP and above, for 32
and 64 bit?

Maybe this is not the ideal solution, but perhaps it's the right thing
to do for now?

Cheers,

Matthew

[1] https://www.enthought.com/products/canopy/canopy-license/
[2] http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-software-development-products-license-agreement
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Re: Windows wheels using MKL?

Matthew Brett
Hi,

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
> for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?
>
> * We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
> easy to come by
> * We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
> of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
> a problem?
>
> Are there other problems for numpy?

Talking with Fernando, we identified these as being the key problem
clauses in the MKL license [1]:

<start quote>
D. DISTRIBUTION: Distribution of the Redistributables is also subject
to the following limitations:
[snipped clauses]
 (iv) shall use a license agreement
that prohibits disassembly and reverse engineering of the
Redistributables, (v) shall indemnify, hold
harmless, and defend Intel and its suppliers from and against any
claims or lawsuits, including
attorney's fees, that arise or result from your distribution of any product.
</end quote>

The first is a problem that might conceivably be adequately solved by
adding a paragraph to the Pypi page for numpy ("If you download and
install the windows binaries, you also agree... ") and copying a new
clause into the license in the installed tree.   Maybe.   The second
looks like it would be very hard to deal with for open source project
like us....

Cheers (sadly),

Matthew

[1] http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-software-development-products-license-agreement
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Re: Windows wheels using MKL?

R Schumacher
In reply to this post by Matthew Brett
I've often wondered the particulars of the MKL; I have licensed via Enthought and distributed compiled works to client(s), and often use C. Gohkle's distros myself.

- Ray

At 05:29 PM 3/26/2014, you wrote:
Hi,

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
> for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?
>
> * We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
> easy to come by
> * We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
> of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
> a problem?
>
> Are there other problems for numpy?

Talking with Fernando, we identified these as being the key problem
clauses in the MKL license [1]:

<start quote>
D. DISTRIBUTION: Distribution of the Redistributables is also subject
to the following limitations:
[snipped clauses]
 (iv) shall use a license agreement
that prohibits disassembly and reverse engineering of the
Redistributables, (v) shall indemnify, hold
harmless, and defend Intel and its suppliers from and against any
claims or lawsuits, including
attorney's fees, that arise or result from your distribution of any product.
</end quote>

The first is a problem that might conceivably be adequately solved by
adding a paragraph to the Pypi page for numpy ("If you download and
install the windows binaries, you also agree... ") and copying a new
clause into the license in the installed tree.   Maybe.   The second
looks like it would be very hard to deal with for open source project
like us....

Cheers (sadly),

Matthew

[1] http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-software-development-products-license-agreement
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Re: Windows wheels using MKL?

Robert Kern-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Brett
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
>> for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?
>>
>> * We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
>> easy to come by
>> * We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
>> of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
>> a problem?
>>
>> Are there other problems for numpy?
>
> Talking with Fernando, we identified these as being the key problem
> clauses in the MKL license [1]:
>
> <start quote>
> D. DISTRIBUTION: Distribution of the Redistributables is also subject
> to the following limitations:
> [snipped clauses]
>  (iv) shall use a license agreement
> that prohibits disassembly and reverse engineering of the
> Redistributables, (v) shall indemnify, hold
> harmless, and defend Intel and its suppliers from and against any
> claims or lawsuits, including
> attorney's fees, that arise or result from your distribution of any product.
> </end quote>
>
> The first is a problem that might conceivably be adequately solved by
> adding a paragraph to the Pypi page for numpy ("If you download and
> install the windows binaries, you also agree... ") and copying a new
> clause into the license in the installed tree.   Maybe.   The second
> looks like it would be very hard to deal with for open source project
> like us....

It would be confusing to distribute these non-BSD wheels on the same
PyPI page that declares most prominently that numpy is BSD-licensed.
Adding some text elsewhere on the PyPI page is not going to help very
much: people look at the "License: BSD" first and foremost. Nothing
stops anyone else from building and distributing MKL-built binaries, a
la C. Gohlke, but I don't think it is wise to do so on the PyPI page.

--
Robert Kern
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Re: Windows wheels using MKL?

Matthew Brett
Hi,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
>>> for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?
>>>
>>> * We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
>>> easy to come by
>>> * We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
>>> of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
>>> a problem?
>>>
>>> Are there other problems for numpy?
>>
>> Talking with Fernando, we identified these as being the key problem
>> clauses in the MKL license [1]:
>>
>> <start quote>
>> D. DISTRIBUTION: Distribution of the Redistributables is also subject
>> to the following limitations:
>> [snipped clauses]
>>  (iv) shall use a license agreement
>> that prohibits disassembly and reverse engineering of the
>> Redistributables, (v) shall indemnify, hold
>> harmless, and defend Intel and its suppliers from and against any
>> claims or lawsuits, including
>> attorney's fees, that arise or result from your distribution of any product.
>> </end quote>
>>
>> The first is a problem that might conceivably be adequately solved by
>> adding a paragraph to the Pypi page for numpy ("If you download and
>> install the windows binaries, you also agree... ") and copying a new
>> clause into the license in the installed tree.   Maybe.   The second
>> looks like it would be very hard to deal with for open source project
>> like us....
>
> It would be confusing to distribute these non-BSD wheels on the same
> PyPI page that declares most prominently that numpy is BSD-licensed.
> Adding some text elsewhere on the PyPI page is not going to help very
> much: people look at the "License: BSD" first and foremost. Nothing
> stops anyone else from building and distributing MKL-built binaries, a
> la C. Gohlke, but I don't think it is wise to do so on the PyPI page.

Can you see any circumstances in which we could use the MKL binaries from pypi?

Cheers,

Matthew
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Re: Windows wheels using MKL?

Matthew Brett
Hi,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Can I check what is stopping us building official numpy binary wheels
>>>> for Windows using the Intel Math Kernel Library?
>>>>
>>>> * We'd need developer licenses, but those sound like they would be
>>>> easy to come by
>>>> * We'd have to add something to the license for the wheel on the lines
>>>> of the Canopy license [1], derived from the MKL license [2] - is that
>>>> a problem?
>>>>
>>>> Are there other problems for numpy?
>>>
>>> Talking with Fernando, we identified these as being the key problem
>>> clauses in the MKL license [1]:
>>>
>>> <start quote>
>>> D. DISTRIBUTION: Distribution of the Redistributables is also subject
>>> to the following limitations:
>>> [snipped clauses]
>>>  (iv) shall use a license agreement
>>> that prohibits disassembly and reverse engineering of the
>>> Redistributables, (v) shall indemnify, hold
>>> harmless, and defend Intel and its suppliers from and against any
>>> claims or lawsuits, including
>>> attorney's fees, that arise or result from your distribution of any product.
>>> </end quote>
>>>
>>> The first is a problem that might conceivably be adequately solved by
>>> adding a paragraph to the Pypi page for numpy ("If you download and
>>> install the windows binaries, you also agree... ") and copying a new
>>> clause into the license in the installed tree.   Maybe.   The second
>>> looks like it would be very hard to deal with for open source project
>>> like us....
>>
>> It would be confusing to distribute these non-BSD wheels on the same
>> PyPI page that declares most prominently that numpy is BSD-licensed.
>> Adding some text elsewhere on the PyPI page is not going to help very
>> much: people look at the "License: BSD" first and foremost. Nothing
>> stops anyone else from building and distributing MKL-built binaries, a
>> la C. Gohlke, but I don't think it is wise to do so on the PyPI page.
>
> Can you see any circumstances in which we could use the MKL binaries from pypi?

Christoph - have you considered building binary wheels for the
projects you support?  If not, is there any help I / we can give?

Cheers,

Matthew
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Re: [SciPy-Dev] Windows wheels using MKL?

Robert Kern-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Brett
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> It would be confusing to distribute these non-BSD wheels on the same
>> PyPI page that declares most prominently that numpy is BSD-licensed.
>> Adding some text elsewhere on the PyPI page is not going to help very
>> much: people look at the "License: BSD" first and foremost. Nothing
>> stops anyone else from building and distributing MKL-built binaries, a
>> la C. Gohlke, but I don't think it is wise to do so on the PyPI page.
>
> Can you see any circumstances in which we could use the MKL binaries from pypi?

No. Most of the point of adding binary wheels to PyPI would be to make
`pip install numpy` work. That gives users *no* chance to see any
documentation about the proprietary license of those binaries.

--
Robert Kern
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Re: [SciPy-Dev] Windows wheels using MKL?

Matthew Brett
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> It would be confusing to distribute these non-BSD wheels on the same
>>> PyPI page that declares most prominently that numpy is BSD-licensed.
>>> Adding some text elsewhere on the PyPI page is not going to help very
>>> much: people look at the "License: BSD" first and foremost. Nothing
>>> stops anyone else from building and distributing MKL-built binaries, a
>>> la C. Gohlke, but I don't think it is wise to do so on the PyPI page.
>>
>> Can you see any circumstances in which we could use the MKL binaries from pypi?
>
> No. Most of the point of adding binary wheels to PyPI would be to make
> `pip install numpy` work. That gives users *no* chance to see any
> documentation about the proprietary license of those binaries.

OK - fair enough.  Does anyone disagree?  If not, I suggest we remove
MKL from the options we consider in the future.

Cheers,

Matthew
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